Solway Goose Management Group - minutes of meetings

NOTES FROM MEETING

1. Welcome and apologies

Present: Quintin Donal (Chair) Stuart Graham (Vice Chair) Susan Hepburn (Minutes), Larry Griffin, Kate Campbell, Jess Shaw, Rae McKenzie, James Lawrie, Steven Murray, Alastair Martin, Alasdair Whylie, Stephen Brown.

Apologies received from WWT.

2. Goose Policy Review
   
   a) RMcK – Overview of policy review

Last review was in 2017.  Consultation has gone out to individuals and NFUS has also put out the same consultation for themselves.  Please reply to both even though the questions are the same.  There was a 6 week response date of which there is still 2 weeks remaining and so far from Solway there has only been 1 response.

All responses to the consultation will be collated and the key issues picked out for the draft report.  Draft report is expected to be out by mid November and the aim is for the final report to be out in Spring. If anyone knows of someone just outside of the zone that would like to contribute.

The new policy will not answer all the questions and in the beginning will probably raise more than answer as the new scheme won’t be ready, however it will be a good place to start.

So far the NatureScot budget has remained the same and ring-fenced but staff are under more and more pressure to review it as all other budgets are being cut.

b) Open discussion for Solway – To be discussed at draft report stage.

AP1 – KC – email the consultation to the group again and anyone else that the group comes up with.

3. Update from National Goose Forum – Alastair Martin

RMcK started this off after question from Kate about who could attend the NGF – Had to fight to get local group included in this meeting as previously it was felt the decisions being made in the meeting were not appropriate.  However format has been changed to a forum to allow discussion however so far it’s not working well as there is way too much presentations and not enough talking which is putting a lot of local group members off. AM had nothing additional to add to this.

It was asked if the minutes of the NGF meeting were published – yes, they can be found on the Scottish Government website but they are not easy to find and are sometime after the meeting before they are published.  Anyone having problem finding them, Rae or Kate can help.

AI – has anywhere else been affected as much as The Solway?  

LG responded - no last year The Solway was definitely hit the hardest.  Iceland reporting a couple of hundred have died since arriving so it is still circulating.  Ireland was also affected badly and birds from Ireland have been washing up in Isla. 

4. Goose Update – Larry Griffin

Last year it was a slow arrival with the biggest numbers not arriving until mid Oct.  Final count was 38,500 where the previous winter it was 43,000+.  October count had to be cancelled due to bad weather and the AI kicked in.

2,500 corpses have been seen/accounted for on the Solway so far.  With Spring count of 27,500 left it’s estimated between AI, poor breading and 10% average mortality rate that approx. 13,000 birds lost this year – 1/3 of the winter population.

Norway seen drops in previous years due to predators such as polar bears and expect a similar Winter population this year.

Larry estimates that about 5% of the surviving population have what he is coining “long AI” with birds being left unsteady on their feet, or unable to fly because they lose their flight feathers or oils because they are struggling to preen themselves.

5.  Goose counts and zonation discussion before claims

KC explained she couldn’t get the data out before the meeting as it’s currently still stored ad an excel spreadsheet and because of the sheer size of it, she is having crashing and corruption issues plus time pressures on her role meant it couldn’t be given the priority it needs.

A discussion was had around the merits/detriments of the 5yr or 10yr average model, the dilution of data, 14 day counts and why the max count hasn’t changed because everything else has.

Previously GD had reviewed the 14 day count and it was felt that this was an acceptable level where there was no significant additional benefit to more regular counts – input had been taken from statistical advisor and ornithological experts.

It was agreed that this scheme was going to be done using the 10yr average so the 5yr is confusing and should be removed. 

The count numbers have been set based on guidance.

Due to no data being available to the farmers prior to the meeting once this task was started it quickly became apparent that continuing would result in unfair representation for those not at the table.  It was agreed to halt the agenda item pending an additional follow up meeting on 18^th October to pick it back up allow a few weeks after data issued.

AP2 – KC – send out the field data in current format as quickly as possible.

6. Onward monitoring for this winter

NatureScot are looking to re-engage LG again for monitoring this year but be aware there has been further budget reductions. This is an extension to LG’s contract however unfortunately this means the trail cameras will not be deployed this year.

AP3 – KC – Send out LG’s contract for this year.

7. AOB

SM – He has an outstanding payment – 2 fields of Kale have historically be wiped out on approx. 3 yrs in the last 12yrs but as it means it is totally wiped out GD had advised him to put in as buffer to allow payment to cover the years it is.  He asked if this is right or is this why his payment is still outstanding.  There was mixed view points and about it coming under the guidance on the NatureScot webpage under rape.

AP4 – KC & QD – to look into and feedback at next meeting. 

Action point summary:

AP1 – KC – email the consultation to the group again and anyone else that the group comes up with.

AP2 – KC – send out the field data in current format as quickly as possible.

AP3 – KC – Send out LG’s contract for this year.

AP4 – KC & QD – to look into and feedback at next meeting. 

8. Dates of next meetings

Agenda item 5 above – 18^th October 2022

Next full meeting – November TBC

NOTES FROM MEETING

Present: Quintin Donald (RPID), Kate Campbell (NatureScot), Barry Dunne (NatureScot), Alistair Wyllie, Alastair Martin, James Worthington (Savills), Steven Brown, Louise Clewley (Reserve manager, WWT), Susan Hepburn (NatureScot, minutes)

1. Apologies – Larry Griffin, Colin Bartholomew (RSPB), Joe Bilous (Natural England) Louise Clewley had to leave during item 1 due to staff shortages in the centre.

2. Consideration of 2020-21 goose density changes only

The whole group worked their way through each farm and discussed (with the exception of their own at which point they stepped out of the meeting) the Zones that had changed or had been yellow carded in the 2019 as due to COVID there had been no review in 2020 and it was carry on as previously. 

A requested was made that new maps with new field numbers be sent to everyone who required it.

It was confirmed that the numbers being discussed were based on that of those from the previous winter.

Although the group agreed on a lot of the changes, it became clear very quickly that that the lack of data on the print-outs on what payment was actually made this year and the missing representatives to clarify details, which further work needed to be done on this task.

AP1 - KC – Add a note to claim forms with zone payments made this year.

AP2 - QD & KC – take a look at the spreadsheet with regards in particular to yellow carded zones in 2019 against what they were paid under.

AP3 - KC – To follow up on the parameters for Buffer Zones with regards to zoned payments – LG now asked to review all data with a view to highlighting “green card” locations that expect high goose use at all time to aid future discussion.

It was generally agreed that if the zone that had changed had not been yellow carded for the previous assessment year that this would be the initial course of action with the exception of Saltmarsh which is not paid on.

One 5 year average on a field in Nether Locharwoods was surprisingly low which the group couldn’t understand so agreed that Kate would check this out to make sure figure was correct.  This then raised the question as to the lower limit of number of birds recorded over the 5 year average in a buffer zone and is it only fair that there should be a cut off point for payment when the field is clearly not attractive to the birds anymore?

AP4 - KC – Check the figures on the field in Nether Locharwoods.

There was discussion around a few fields in Hollands that have dropped out of Buffer due to unusually low number and if these should be Yellow carded for a year.  Kate is going to discuss with Larry and a further conversation between NatureScot, Steven Brown and Alistair Martin is required.

AM – raised the difference of goose counting on a monthly basis to now working on a 5 year average and how much of a difference that can make. It used to be 10 years.

SB – Agreed that if you were just to use the 5 year average without the input of local knowledge it would be unfair.  That for example, at the moment it seems unfair that even though he gets huge numbers through the season, he gets the same money as someone just along the road who has had a few good counts on the count days that bring the average up.

AW – raised the issue that planting last year means that he has been actively scaring for a year so numbers will be low and the impact that has on his 5 year average as it’s still counted – perhaps there should be something that discounts planting years?

Overall the group agreed that this task was a good way of doing this exercise and with the additions of payment will make it easier next time, however the spreadsheets were a little small to read so could perhaps be printed a little bigger next time.

 AP5 - KC – Discuss with Larry the fields on Hollands and set up a meeting to discuss with SB and AM.

AP6 - KC – Review the theory behind 5 year averages and if 10 years could make a difference.

3. Representations for other goose areas requiring discussions

Discussed in point 2 above.

4. Representations for other good areas requiring discussion

Discussion was had around when the current scheme ends and whether there will be 2 payments or 3.  Also the tender process for monitoring.

SB - Asked why the tender wasn’t already in place given that the geese have been here since September?

KC - Clarified that she is trying to get a handle of what the Geese need on the ground and has been speaking to LG about the NGF and new Fly-away plans which SG are bringing in under which Solway area will be a standalone area.

Also looking at other models or better strategies for a clearer understanding to gauge if goose scheme should be under AECS.

There are many questions about how the new scheme would work and these will take time to work through.

SB – Asked why the tender is not already out now and why the scheme waits until Nov to start monitoring when geese are here in Sep.

BD – Clarified that it has always been Nov and that this is not because there are hold ups with the contract – it in fact states in the tender work starts in Nov and this will have had something to do with the methodology behind the monitoring being a 5 year average and going from previously 36 counts to 16.

AW – Is sure that historically there was been earlier counts.

QD – Pointed out that there will be a cost element to consider with earlier counts where numerous zero counts are recorded early on.

AP7 – KC to clarify with LG the methodology behind the Nov start for counts.

5. Report from National Goose Forum

AM – discussions around SG letter recently removing £40k from greylags took up a lot of the meeting and other thing was AECS so group ran on into action point 6

6. Discussion on novel scaring strategies and making fields unappealing for geese (Future scheme considerations & AECS to be included)

AM – NGF was asked if geese could be fit into the scheme and it the response what that something could be found to make them fit.  A line based approach like with Islay, would be more difficult to make fit on the Solway.

QD – Had a meeting with Donald Fraser in which they discussed how to pull together ideas for going forward into what is after this scheme.

SB - Highlighted that the evidence required under AECS has to be not only extremely accurate but also extensive and feels that now would be the best time to start collecting it if it is to be AECS.

QD – Suggested that a flat rate approach might be an option?

AM – A flat rate would potentially scare some off and mean they won’t want to go into AECS.

KC – Historically we have been trying to encourage the geese however, it may be that we actively discourage them and this might be an option to affect what is put in place going forward in areas that are suitable for this.

AM – SG has an obligation to protect the geese and the international fly away plan being developed over next 2 years give us a good opportunity to get a scheme in place that works for the Solway.

KC – Looking for examples and input into novel scaring techniques but noted that this is not about making the field completely useless for production more so that the geese find it unattractive e.g. field size, shade, trees.  Still trying to get a hold of a copy of the Woodgee report which was supposed to be out last year.

AM – Asked that if the field is made unattractive where do the geese go?

AW – Highlighted that it is much harder work to maintain scaring and can mean daily works and checks.

QD – Informed the group that they are looking at replacing the current chair of the National Goose Forum to the Chief Agricultural Officer as it would be a better fit with his knowledge and experience.  This is currently Douglas Petrie.

7. License application

KC – There is currently 1 licence application for Redkirk and in progress.

AM – Asked if a licence is required if you use a gun not pointed at any birds as a scarer?   

KC – shooting to scare is allowed.  There are lists of quarry species who can be legally shot under open license in season on the NatureScot website. 

AP8 – Further information can be found at

Licensing

Birds: licences to prevent serious damage

8. Discussion on membership changes or guests to meetings

Group agreed it works well the way it is and that it should remain closed and that any issues are raised through letter to the representative.

SB – Raised that perhaps the group could be used collaboratively to put in any future AECS applications.

9.  AOB & Next meeting

AW – Raised the issue which Tony’s fields – he has a couple of fields missing.

Kate asked for the photos from Tony to be sent to her and she will look into it.

SB – Asked why the field numbers have been changed?

KC – AS there have been many changes in IACS numbers it was felt it was a good time to use the new numbers previously created in NatureScot as it will make it easier for monitoring.

SB – Raised again that a copy of the map with the new numbers would be handy as very difficult to tie in with the old map.

AP8 - KC –Look into missing fields on Tony’s land.

Next meeting to be arranged for Mid Feb.

Notes from Meeting

Present: Quintin Donald (RPID), Kate Campbell (NatureScot), Barry Dunne (NatureScot), Alistair Wyllie, Jim Kirkland, Alastair Martin, James Worthington (Savills), Colin Bartholomew (RSPB), Steven Murray, Joe Bilous (Natural England), Steven Brown, Larry Griffin (consultant), Louise Clewley (Reserve manager, WWT), Susan Copeland (NatureScot, minutes)

1. Apologies – none received

2. Introductions – there were various new faces so everybody introduced themselves, new to the meetings we Kate Campbell (KC), Joe Bilous (JB), Louise Clewley (LC) and Stephen Brown (SB)

3. Minutes of last meeting were approved.

4. Larry Griffin (LG) carried out 16 counts covering Southwick to Gretna. The total was generally lower, especially during the second half (Oct-mid Feb were amongst the lowest months).  The peak count was 42303 in October, and the minimum was 26920 in February, although the counts were affected by the ability to carry out counts due to COVID.  There were 6 leucistic geese. Juvenile goose counts – sample of 14000 geese, 13% were juvenile it’s the second most productive season in the last 10 years. Spring migration – 11 birds were tagged and the all went to Loch Leven NNR at the end of February.  There were 5 Svalbard birds. 32000 birds at Rockcliffe, Cumbria.

Jim Kirkland (JK) – same numbers, although sometimes more over the winter

Steven Murray (SM) – big flocks 5000-6000 regularly, left at the beginning of April, grass shoots appearing now.

Alastair Wylie (AW) – heavy usage all season, plenty of geese around, left in April

Alastair Martin (AM) – Dec – Feb heavy usage, geese were looking for fresh grass in other fields.

James Worthington (JW) – intense first few months. Lots of grazing at Thwaite

SB – Still scaring on 1 May, geese at Newfield all season (about 1000-15000 on 1 May)

Barry Dunne (BD) – reported that Maurice Swan was badly hit Nov-Dec, much higher numbers that previous years. NatureScot supplied him with a gas gun / bottle which he has finished using, BD need to get the numbers from Maurice Swan.

Action BD: To contact MS

Mr & Mrs Moffat (tenants of Mr Wilson) continue to have significant impact on the land, photos were provided, they are unable to put pregnant cows on the land as there is a possibility the goose droppings are causing miscarriage / death (not confirmed by science). If they were further west they would probably get payments for 3 or 4 fields, they are still getting geese just now. Lots of early morning use at Gretna, geese from first light but the counts aren’t done until later in the day when they’ve gone. They want to get money from the scheme. Does the group want to take it to the goose forum?

LG suggests we need £40-50k extra for the scheme

QD – geese are spilling out of the usual area

JB – Started in post in Jan so is still getting up to speed with the south side of the Solway

Colin Bartholomew (CB) – West Preston have hopefully done some grass improvements, liming / topping thistles and nettles, should be better grazing for geese

LC – only been in post a short time, there’s been no cattle grazing at WWT during summer 2020 so the grass is rough, the cattle will return to grazing there summer 2021

5. BD & KC have a meeting with Morag Milne next week to discuss the scheme, scheme to carry on for the next 2 years with no changes to budget / geographical cover, this will be looks at during the coming years. The AECS scheme is outcome based / prescription led approach, how does goose management fit into that?

QD – wait until the timeline is in place before deciding on new proposals, extra funds may be difficult

6. AM – attended the National Goose Forum on 2 March, a lot of time was spent looking at presentations. Category A is very high upscale needing protection. Category B not under as much pressure. AEW group, Ray McKenzie’s draft will be done by end of June. No funding discussions were held.

AM queried if there was money not paid out last year, money left over? QD confirmed there was a very small amount left. BD check if there is underspend each year, this would help with Redkirk. QD agreed

Action BD: check funds - Discharged

BD Comment 18/05/21 – Discussed underspend with national goose forum secretariat. There is an underspend most years. Other scheme around the country also have a very similar issues as we do at Redkirk i.e. areas out with the scheme boundary area which are significantly affected by grazing geese. Further discussion required.

7. SB has been involved with the scheme from the beginning of the pilot scheme but isn’t included in the group, he would like to join the group. He feels strongly that there should be more feedback provided by the group, minutes should be sent out to everybody with an interest.  He said it’s a fantastic scheme and feels it’s one that may have been copied elsewhere. He suggested that fields with no geese counted should be removed sooner and fields with more geese should be added as it’s a compensation scheme not a subsidy. He mentioned that the last minutes suggested letter-writing to MP’s and asked if anybody had done so.  Oliver Mundell had brought it up in Parliament.  KC said that Morag Milne said letters help with their ability to get a seat at the table as it’s not at the top of the agenda.

KC confirmed that she has seen the draft of Vyv Wood-Gee’s report, it should be published soon.

Action KC: Circulate report when available

KC Comment 20/05/21 – Request has been put in with the geese group coordinator to get access to this report ASAP.

QD said SB had hosted an MP and showed them the bare ground, we need to keep on at the next minister in place.  Islay scheme have already done this, we need to make sure we’re heard to get a more even distribution of funds.

LG asked if the Islay goose grazing results are available.  KC will ask for them

Action KC: get grazing results

CB asked SB what kind of co-operation he would like from RSPB, SB said he would like more respect given from both sides, and that the scheme needs views from all parties.

QD – there’s no problem with the minutes being issued widely.  BD said they are already placed on the internet. QD is going to check to see if changing the group membership is possible.

Action QD: confirm if any restrictions on membership

LG – he is aware that the goose numbers at Caerlaverock have dramatically reduced, but there are greater numbers north of the road, the reserve used to get a management grant but doesn’t anymore.

QD – SB earlier mentioned fields dropping in and out of the scheme, it’s difficult to chop and change, but maybe the scheme needs to be a bit smarter, the counts are only a guide, they are averaged over a long period of time.

SM – His neighbours used to be in the scheme but are now planting trees and pushing the geese off the fields, other neighbours are getting more geese on areas with rushes on low ground.  CB said the RSPB is opposed to the planting for various reasons.

LG – there is other data out there, such as tagging data.  QD asked if it could be easily accessed, LG confirmed it could be accessed, but wouldn’t necessarily be easy and would incur costs.

SM – he suggested not concentrating too much on the goose counts, we should look more at damage done to the ground, photos show fields are being used regardless of what the counts say.

8. BD asked if the group would prefer electronic or paper correspondence in future. The group responded electronic is fine.  CB would like to see the goose reports carried out by WWT.  Follow link to access them- https://www.wwt.org.uk/

BD confirmed that we are happy to publish everything on the on the internet: Solway barnacle goose management scheme.

SB suggested checking in April which fields should be included, would that provide enough time between May and November to make the required payments. He said that he didn’t think anybody had looked at the fields in the last couple of years.  QD confirmed that he and Graeme Dalby had visited the fields but not for the last couple of years.

KC said conversations can continue outwith the meetings, please email her if you have any suggestions about the scheme.

Action KC: Share contact details

KC Comment 21/05/21 – Discharged via email on 21/05/21

LG asked if there had been any licences issued this year on either side, JB said 1 and that it was a renewal.  BD said 2 had been requested to NatureScot but both were turned down

9.    Date of next meeting - TBC

For meeting to be held at the SNH Dumfries Office (Moffat Road) at 10.00 on Wednesday 26^th June 2019

Agenda

1. Apologies
    
2. Scheme 2018-19
   monitoring (% young, brood size) - WWT
   monitoring (weekly counts) - L Griffin
   feedback from participants - Farmers feedback from
   Others - GD
    
3. Feedback from National Goose Management Review Group (met 3^rd June 2019) - GD/QD
    
4. Feedback from Goose Science Advisory Group - GD
    
5. Consideration of 2019-20 - GD
   Representation made
   Goose density map inc Redkirk
   Potential changes - areas | Rules | Monitoring
    
6. AOCB - All
   General licence consultation
   Greylag challenge fund
   Note meeting/discussion re other geese – greylag pilots, Gallaberry (Pinks)
    
7. Date of next meeting  suggest 11:00 26^th Feb 2020 at SNH office

Notes from Meeting

Present: Quintin Donald (QD), Graeme Dalby (GD), Alastair Wyllie (AW), Brian Morrell (BM), Larry Griffin (LG), James Worthington (JW), Colin Bartholomew (CB), Barry Dunne (BD), Susan Copeland (minutes)

1. Apologies: Alastair Martin
2. LG reported as follows:
   
   Production of young for 2018-19 was below the 10 year minimum, with a brood size of just under 2, the sample was 1/3 of the population.  The total population was potentially down at 40400.  About 4000 – 6000 were in the north east of England, mostly moving across the Solway late Feb/early March.  All birds moved on north by end of April, the 11 tagged ones moved north by 20 April probably due to the hot weather.
   
   Weekly counts – No major problems with counts, there were no major weather issues so only 1 count wasn’t completed.  The counts were fairly normal; and where rushes had been cut, there had been increased use by geese.
   
   CB said there were lots of geese at West Preston.
   
   GD reported no licences had been applied for this year.
   
   AW – the birds had followed the normal pattern due to the mild winter, the geese left quite promptly and barley was sown early due to the weather
   
   JW – birds were grazing on cereals before they left; he asked LG what information he got from the trail camera.  LG said he wasn’t finished looking through the footage due to the amount recorded, but that there were birds in front of Lantonside in the mornings for a couple of hours for about 4 days before then moving to different areas later in the day.  This pattern dropped away after a few days, to be repeated about a fortnight later.  He’s hoping to produce information on goose use per hour using data from the trail cameras instead of per day as was calculated from the normal visual goose counts
   
   CB – Drone were sent up at Mersehead to document the dunes having been washed out but was quickly recovered because the geese became unsettled with the noise.  LG agreed, he said that as soon as the geese hear noise they are unsettled and leave.
   
   GD – it was a quiet winter with no issues raised by locals, although farmers at Redkirk remained concerned that the fields are being used and they are not included in the scheme, they have been issued with gas bangers but they are only effective for a while.
   
   It was accepted that there is no money for the scheme to be extended outside the current budget.
    
3. No feedback from the National Goose Management Review Group
    
4. The Group was being asked to provide an invitee to sit on the National Goose Forum.  The Goose Science Advisory Group met in February and is focussed on science and research strategy and what’s happening to populations.  The African Eurasian Waterbird Agreement meeting also took place at Battleby; they looked at developing flyway plans that integrate management objectives/actions across a range of countries.
   
   GD/QD also attended an SNH-organised Goose Conference in Glasgow at which  all species were discussed.  They also discussed funding options, pros and cons of SRPD/AECS and goose scheme.  The agreed goose scheme budget is set for the current scheme and the continuing budget pressure will have impact on all schemes, for more common geese (greylag) it was suggested that SNH may step back from funding and provide advice only.
   
   BM asked if there would be another scheme, GD said he would think there would be.  AECS scheme is just a different way to get funding.  QD said that AECS can be complex and can require an agent to complete the required documentation/application.
    
5. GD provided copies of goose maps for the count area and explained how he got the figures and what information the maps provide.  There was a lot of discussion on the layout of the maps, some comments were made about areas that showed little geese but where local knowledge shows that geese are present.
   
   It was decided that the new maps would be used to decide which fields would be feeding and buffer but that local knowledge would also be used to make decisions.  Perhaps some fields were either just below or just above the count threshold and may be need to be manually adjusted to a more appropriate category.
   
   AW pointed out some fields that have been recently upgraded to feeding but the count information is now suggesting them as buffer.  Such frequent changes are of little benefit.  LG asked if the ‘below 700’ (but still used) fields could be changed from white to another colour.
   
   BM suggested taking a look at the fields where the count was under 700 to make sure that it’s correct. All agreed.
   
   CB asked whether the maps should use 5 year data instead of 10, as this would be in line with AECS contracts.  BD agreed, a 5 year average may change the colour of the fields on the map.
   
   BM said it was important the Mersehead land data be included on the map. GD will produce 2 sets of maps (5yr average and 10-yr average, showing data for all fields, with colouration being for 1-350/351-700/701-1400/1401-2100/ over 2100).
   
   BD made the point that the sampling accuracy should be borne in mind when considering zonation and that we don’t want to have scaring in a field beside a feeding field/reserve area.
   
   QD queried the use of a field to the west of Redkirk [R449] as he had visited the field with BD and noted it was heavily used but was on the map as below 700.  LG said that geese are often on the saltmarsh at Redkirk and he doesn’t often go down there because it causes a disturbance and birds move elsewhere, so the area is counted from a distance.  At Redkirk, there is a tenant using slurry to help discourage goose use.  LG had trail cameras in the Redkirk area, but one had been stolen and one badly affected by livestock.  The trail cameras noted cattle going out on 14 April.
   GD action: to produce more maps
   
   Potential changes – BD - the main issue is changes to the map, no issues with the general scheme, but the rules around the buffer zone need to be clearer.  Discussed inspections at the start of the scheme.  What kind of management did the group expect for buffer fields, the fields need to be managed better to attract the geese to stay.  Some fields have had the rushes cut and this seems to be working.  The guidance for feeding fields says 50% productive grasses in the sward, but this is not specified for buffer fields.  It was agreed that it should be the same for both feeding and buffer fields
   GD AP – to amend guidance
   
   AW queried what would happen with stubble in buffer, there are a lot of geese and natural regenerating grasses.
   
   CB asked if this rush:grass balance would lead to conflict with AECS schemes for some people.  QD doesn’t think there would be an issue.
   SC action – to amend guidance for website
   
   Monitoring – LG had put cameras in some low lying fields.  AW asked if cameras should be put in other places to check for geese, what other locations could have cameras.  LG said that the cameras aren’t the best method for determining numbers of geese using fields at a distance and that it takes considerable time to go through the footage.
   
   QD – what to do if a field has too many rushes? Give a warning or stop the payment.  BD suggested that if the field went from feeding to buffer, the payment would be adjusted, but that from buffer to scaring zone, a warning should be given to bring it up to a satisfactory standard for the following year or no payment would be made.  This was agreed.
   
   Cameras would be used in contentious fields; others would be monitored as normal.  SNH will be putting the contract out to tender as per recent years.
   
   Funding would be discussed at the August goose forum meeting and would be fedback to the group by GD & QD
    
6. Licences - There had been issues in England regarding general licences.  Similar licences exist in Scotland and include Greylag and Canada geese for crop protection purposes.  SNH is expected to have a consultation on the full range of general licences shortly.
   
   Greylag Challenge Fund – this is a pot of money developed by SNH and is linked to the reducing priority for funding for Greylag Goose adaptive management pilots, with the aim of helping pump prime ‘self help’ approaches.  Within D&G, there are few centres of high greylag numbers, only really causing issues around  Stranraer and Loch Ken.
   
   Gallaberry – An area north of the bypass in having problems with pinks, farmers in that area have stopped growing winter cereals and are losing early grass.  JW agreed that this is the case on both sides up the River Nith.
   
   BD thanked SC and GD for the work involved in producing the new maps
    
7. Date of next meeting – 28 August 2019, 10am

Notes from Meeting

Present: Quintin Donald (QD), Graeme Dalby (GD), Barry Dunne (BD), Alistair Wyllie (AW), Jim Kirkland (JK), Alastair Martin (AM), James Worthington (JW), Brian Morrell (BM), Colin Bartholomew (CB), Thomas McMillan (TMcM) – for part of meeting, Susan Copeland (minutes)

1. Apologies – Larry Griffin (LG)
   Previous minutes were approved
    
2. Monitoring – In the absence of Larry Griffin, BM read out his report – there have been 7 counts since the start of October, although the Brow Well bridge collapse hindered the first 5.  Birds had mostly all arrived by 2 October, 31,500 on the Solway.  Highest counts were 34,500 on 23 October and 37,500 on 5 February, on that date there were 2,500 at Budle Bay (nr Lindisfarne) an increase from less than 2,000 in Dec 2019.  Overall numbers have levelled and started to decline.  This could be due to several factors, weather – strong northerly winds. Longer term, the 2019 breeding season was very poor, with only 5% young in the Solway flocks.  Reproductive success has been below average for 7 of the last 10 years.  The field use was fairly typical with birds making good use of the scheme area and not having spread out too much due to access to good grass in most places, with the exception of the flooded areas.  Most farmers have been fairly happy that the counts represent the situation on the ground, although felt that there were one or 2 areas where counts missed the birds.  Trail cameras were installed to monitor 6 fields from Jan/Feb.
   The survey area averaged about 23,500 bids across 12 counts, with between 14,500 and 38,500 birds recorded on any one count.
    
3. AW – A typical year, but geese spreading out a bit perhaps due to population size, there was lots of damage and the wet weather wasn’t helping.  He passed on that Jack Graham can’t get down to see the geese on his land but there is a trail camera in place.  BD said that the fields are in buffer and haven’t been removed from the scheme.
   
   JK – Numbers much the same as usual, numbers up on Cowcorse and spreading out more.  It would be helpful if RSPB were to top their fields in September, CB said that they are restricted by their AECS contract as to when they can do this.
   
   GD met with Mr Roan who has land north of Southerness Golf Course. 
   
   T McM entered the meeting and GD did introductions
   
   AM – there are more on the Lochar roadside than there have been in a number of years. Maybe due to the tidal floods and high water, there a lots of large puddles around attracting groups.  It’s been reasonably mild so there is more grass.
   
   JW – there are plenty of geese at Lantonside, the merse counts are accurate but he’s not convinced that the move to uplands is reflected correctly.
   
   QD asked if the bridge being down affected much, the answer was no, although counts weren’t possible at Redkirk.
   
   GD said that Mr Roan has open fields with young grass, it’s been in crop for a number of years.  He’s moved towards grass based, doesn’t have a huge volume of feed.  Redkirk (Wilson) has the same sort of fields
   
   Mr Graham, east of Redkirk, has evidence of heavy geese use. 
   
   Managing by spreading slurry is not to be encouraged especially spreading on waterlogged field.  Mr Wilson declined the offer of a banger as he was concerned it might be stolen.
   
   Nith – still getting geese, there are pinks further up the Nith
   
   T McM, Garlieston Farm – He’s had Barnacles till April for the past few years, they graze in the moonlight. He had winter wheat & barley, and silage and no compensation.  The numbers are increasing, he’s using gas guns, flapping bags and scarecrows, but they get used to them really quickly. Also sheep grazing doesn’t make any difference.  In monetary terms its costing T McM £1,000’s.  He doesn’t do spring cereals because it’s a waste of time.
   
   Stewarton and Culscadden Farms are also affected.  Paul Collin (PC, county bird recorder) and Andrew Bielinski do goose counts/monitoring in the area
   
   QD – funding is limited, need to work on something to replace the scheme.  GD said this winter is the last confirmed funding, could we ask to expand the scheme area in any future scheme.
   
   GD asked T McM if there is a line where the barnacles go, he’s not sure.  CM will get count information from PC
   BM / CB action: to get counts from PC
   
   Barnacles arrive later at the Crook of Baldoon, the numbers have been increasing over the last 5 years. 
   
   AM asked if the counts done by PC are included in the total population counts – yes, PC feeds back to LG.  All possible new areas need to be taken in account for whatever new scheme is put in place.
   
   No information has been received from Natural England, so must remain unchanged, not aware of any licences having been issued.  Natural England don’t provide any compensation.
   
   QD – the National Goose Policy framework document – shows variation of delivery across the country.  There’s no indication of the SNH budget, there needs to be a discussion about the mechanism of funding, possibly the agri-environment scheme.  Money continues to be tight.  Other schemes are in the same boat, SNH & Scottish Government (SG) are looking at all schemes, we are in unchartered waters due to the EU exit.  The funding was from devolved money, SNH uses SG money not DEFRA. Other bodies will also be wanting a share of future monies, such as NHS
   
   There are discussions about goose scheme being delivered within the agri-environment scheme.
   
   AM – AECS is a 5 year scheme with things being the same from day 1 to the end of the 5 years, he doesn’t want it to be within AECS
   
   QD said it would need to be easily variable, it needs to be a national priority and money should be given to everybody within the scheme area
   
   BD – it doesn’t sit well within AECS, but there are various different ways within AECS.  It’s in nobody’s interest to over complicate things, putting it into AECS will be considered but no decision has been made on this yet.
   
   AM – SG need to know what the group are doing before the budget is set. He said that Oliver Mundell came to Caerlaverock recently.  BD said that as a result of this he had been contacted by SNH chairman to provide information.
   
   The farmers within the group agreed that writing to MSP’s would be a good idea.
   
   BD – the group need to be able provide a case for a scheme when it’s required when budgets are being looked at
    
4. Feedback from National Goose Forum – AM video-conferenced into the meeting, presentations were given but the meeting wasn’t very successful, QD fed this back.
   
   Farm Practice in Goose Scheme areas – There was a meeting with Vyv Wood-Gee at the Mabie House Hotel, they looked at what the impact of the geese is.  She visited other areas and has drafted a report.  The report is with SNH, and the final version will hopefully be available towards the summer.  It can be used to help develop the new scheme, trying to work out how costs for managing scheme differ and what is a realistic figure.  GD will send the report to everybody when it’s available.
   GD action: to send report when available
   
   National Goose Policy Review – nothing to report, SG is still considering it.
   
   African Eurasian Waterbird Agreement – population modelling of barnacle goose populations is being carried out, with the model for the Russian population being produced first, then the Islay population, then the Solway population (so a Solway model would become available 1-2 years hence?)
    
5. Feedback from Goose Science Advisory Group – there was no meeting held
    
6. AOCB – Need to think about the next stage by the next meeting.  GD to gather ideas for the new scheme, the likely timescale would be a submission for a scheme by late summer or early autumn.  QD said there may be benefit in a meeting with a wider audience (no decision if meeting required), but should aim for some info gathering from wider affected parties during end June / July. 
   
   Information required from Morag Milne as soon as possible, June / July is a tight timescale, as soon as info is received from the review process there may need to be a working group set up.
   
   Other areas to possibly be included: Garlieston, Redkirk, East Caerlaverock, Ruthwell, Colvend area, Auchencairn village area, Southwick, Orchardton.
   
   Geese inconsistent at Kirkcudbright, no feedback from Gatehouse area and nothing much at Stranraer.
    
7. Date of next meeting - 25 June 10.00am

Meeting held at the SNH Dumfries Office (Moffat Road) at 10:00 on Wednesday 28^th August 2019

Agenda

1. Apologies
2. Consideration of 2019-2020 (GD)
   • Goose density map
   • Potential changes - areas | Rules
   • Monitoring
3. AOCB (All)
    
4. Date of next meeting suggest 11:00 20^th Feb 2019 at SNH office

Notes from Meeting

Present: Quintin Donald (QD), Graeme Dalby (GD), Barry Dunne (BD), James Worthington (JW), Alastair Wyllie (AW), Alastair Martin (AM), Brian Morrell (BM), Colin Bartholomew (CB), Susan Copeland (minutes)
 

1. Apologies – none were received
    
2. QD opened the meeting explaining that the main thing to be looked at today was goose density. He asked if the group want to extend the feeding zone to the 2 fields at Redkirk, and if the National Goose Group would prevent any new areas being included in an extension.  GD said nationally, the local group were being told that zonation is to be locally-determined, but to be aware that there will be no extra money for it.  AM said that the people further up the Nith may also want to be included if changes are being made.  GD said that if the scheme sticks strictly to the density / payment guidelines then there should be enough money for all fields meeting the required density thresholds.  AM questioned if GD wants to change the fields in the later years of the scheme and are we using the 5 year goose density figures.  GD explained the fields with no colour on the density maps have been included but they are very light usage. 
   
   AW asked why the maps were changed from 10 year to 5 year average.  There wasn’t much different between the figures over 10 year average and 5 year average.  QD said we are asked to show evidence as to why some fields are feeding zone and others are buffer.  AM questioned the results of the counts of the fields at Locharwoods, and suggested some other fields are also being used more than suggested in the figures. GD said that the count figures would be used but the local knowledge would also be applied.  JW said that crop rotation comes into it, when fields have been seeded there will also be lots of geese.  CB said that the 5 year average counts would be useful if the scheme changes to AECS
   
   JW would like to know from Larry Griffin what information he got from the trail cameras, as he didn’t think that the goose numbers for Lantonside were accurate.
   
   BM noted that there was a huge amount of historic data and questioned how we interpret it.  AM thinks that the 5 year data isn’t as robust as it used to be when it was counted every 6 days throughout the winter, and that maybe the numbers don’t reflect as well as they did previously.  GD said that the map shows the highest numbers counted
   
   QD said that we are not trying to redo the scheme, AM asked if GD has a list of fields that he wants to change either up or down, GD confirmed that this was his intention.  AM asked, do we want to break the scheme area, GD asked if the group wanted to consider fields outside the immediate area, the scheme had been £18,000 under budget last winter, although this wouldn’t cover a lot of extra fields.  BD said he thought that the number of fields couldn’t be extended, GD said that this was the case previously but that National Goose Forum were non-committal on the possibility now, and that the local group can make the recommendation.  QD said that it has been ring-fenced for a number of years.
   
   QD had visited Redkirk, they are managing to discourage goose use using slurry applications.
   
   The group decided to continue with the current ring-fence of Caerlaverock/Ruthwell and Southwick areas.  BM would like to see the £18,000 spent.  AM said the people in the Islay scheme get paid more.
   
   GD showed maps and goose figures and the group discussed the fields that perhaps need moved between buffer and feeding (in either direction)
   
   AM questioned whether the group should look at the buffer fields, or just major variations, QD asked if there is a set of rules to follow to allow a field to be removed. GD needs to check various fields with Larry
   GD ACTION: check fields with Larry
   
   BD suggested looking at the fields that have been reduced if there is money left over.  JW said that there are geese on some fields, but not on the days when the counts are done (so the counts represent a significant under-counting).  AM asked why the counting frequency was reduced to fortnightly, he said you’ll miss lots of geese as they go in cycles.  BD said that the count frequency needs to be considered in any future scheme.  It doesn’t help the group make decisions if the data isn’t strong. 
   
   QD suggested maybe Plumpe could be included in the scheme, GD said he would check finances
   GD ACTION: to check budget
   GD ACTION: to check Redkirk & Netherwood figures
   
   GD said that the price enquiry had gone out for the counting contract, 1 quote had been received back, GD is checking why the others haven’t quoted
   
   QD asked if the areas south of Dumfries have big counts, GD confirmed that they do.
    
3. AOCB – QD attended the National Goose Forum meeting (by VC); the bulk of the meeting was about terms of reference.  There were questions asked about future funding, but there was no certainty in where things are going, and nothing was agreed.  Questions were asked about Islay, they appear to have a new scheme.  The Forum only allowed 1 local representative per scheme and QD asked if somebody else from the group would like to be the rep, perhaps one of the farmers would be better, they could then fight strongly in their own corner, as he doesn’t want the area to miss out

AM would like to find out more about how the Islay scheme appears to have been extended.  GD suggested that it was probably not an extension of the current provision, as it has been confirmed that the current schemes continue to spring 2021.

In addition, GD highlighted that there is to be work done to produce Flyway Plans for each of the barnacle goose populations.  The Russian/Dutch population is being targeted first, as it is substantially larger than others.  The Solway and Islay population flyway plans will be developed in the near future.  In terms of possible future provision (beyond spring 2021), there does not seem to be better alternative schemes yet so any new scheme will probably be similar to the existing one, but with a more restricted budget.

AM said that everybody has said for years that the Solway has a good scheme, but there’s not much noise made about it, unlike the Islay scheme.
QD ACTION: to find out about the Islay scheme

Everybody agreed that the Solway scheme has been a success

Date of next meeting: 11am 27 February at SNH office.

These tables show the summary of discussion/zoning for fields where this differs from purely numerical thresholds